POLL: TWiV: Mary Marvel

"OK... I'll admit, I'm a little jealous that I didn't think of that last one for Lightning Lady."

Well Brad, lets see a design for our dear Lightning Lady...maybe even open it up to the fans? The best design gets used in a storyline where LL is undercover? (I'm not trying to plot or anything, just something to mull over)

Remember when Wasp would change her costume every other storyline? Maybe you could do a storyline where a character gets a "vemon" costume that constantly changes...think of the HI-lar-ity that would ensure (ok, thats close to plotting so I wont make any more suggestions)

Now lemme tell ya about the storyline i came up with for...wait! put me down! Argus, please the cigar burns! OK OK I'm going! I'm go...

Wow, another disgusting attempt by American comics to exploit any female character they can get their hands on to supplement their bottom line. Maybe if they had good art, stories that people could follow and care about or female characters that would not be murdered, exploited or in some way be victimized. Stay classy Brad Guigar, in my view you are better then anyone at Marvel or DC.

Don't read much comics do you? This is tame and mild in comparison to what you would find in Japan. Ghost in the Shell had tentacle sex, lesbian sex, and far worst costumes than what this shows.

Just because Japan may do worse, that does not make American comics innocent of exploitation.

I dont think anyone is saying american comics arent using exploitation as a means to sell comics. That said, I do think both companies, Marvel and DC are both only after the bottom line.

To be fair the furies have always been portrayed as innocents corrupted, just cause Mary is ugly doesnt make her exploited, just a lousy character.

I've read far too much recently about comics being 'sexist' and 'exploitative'.

Let me just make a point here:

While it's true that there are very few female superheroes/villains who don't have impossibly perfect bodies and a 'minimalist' fashion sense ...just take a look at the guys.

Comic book men have zero bodyfat, huge, ultra-defined muscles and walk (or fly) around in spandex.

Comicbook characters are, by definition, exaggerated, stylised representations of normal human beings.

You can't call comics sexist or exploitative because all the women look like Victoria's Secret models when all the men look like Mr. Universe finalists.

Sure, Mary Marvel's body and outfit is a little over the top...but so is Superman's, Batman's, Spider-Man's, Wolverine's, Black Panther's...well, you get the idea.

That is an excellent point, Paulius (and, by the way, welcome!)

All you have to do is look at my comic to find out that, in the end, I agree with you completely. :)

However, the thing that really bothered me with Mary Marvel's transformation wasn't necessarily the costume change, it was that fact that, suddenly, we were treated to upskirt shots of her in every appearance since she donned the black leather.

And I'm not even against *that* -- I think comics *should* be sexy -- but I also think a little goes a long way.

What was so wrong with the "evil cheerleader" look conveyed by the Black Adam-style long-sleeve top over the pleated miniskirt? It was simple, dramatic, and sexy. Even if they had wanted to go with the Power Girl P^H^H^H cut-out lightning bolt...red? Really? No gold in the entire outfit?

The hair, on the other hand, especially with the "special needs" headgear, is just terrible. I mean, any use of punkish hair is generally going to relegate you to the rank of henchman. Seriously. Name one Big Bad with hair like that who anyone takes seriously. No, it's henchwench all the way with that look. Better she should have gone with a dominatrix style topknot with cascade. She could even have dyed her brown hair black. But pink? With a shaved pate? When did she become a minor sub-villainess in Captain America?

I can't even associate ugliness with exploitation in this case. The only thing that I can associate with the bad hairstyle and outfit is insanity.

It can't really be said enough - it's not the exploitation, it's the UGLINESS. That's one ulgy outfit, and the hair is uglier.

Well, I think the big problem here is that most mainstream comics today tend to think that 'edgy' equals successful.

If you've been a lifelong comic fan, you don't bat an eyelid when a 'bad girl' character like Black Cat flashes some cleavage or you see another almost-signature Huntress butt-shot.

Then when you come to a clean-cut character like Mary Marvel going bad, I think DC have decided 'The edgier the better'.

It's one thing to have the character go bad, but it's another to go really over the top. It's like the difference between having Sue Richards just 'go bad' and start working for Doctor Doom... or having her divorce Reed, set the Baxter Building on fire and get a job in a strip club. One is a just a good storyline, the other would set the comics community ablaze.

To be honest, after reading this discussion, I'm pretty sure that this is exactly what DC wanted. It certainly got people talking about it...and if it turns out to be universally hated, it's a small thing to go back to the old costume.

Long story short, there's no such thing as bad publicity and that's exactly what DC were going for... and they succeeded.

...That the new costume is downright terrible is almost besides the point.

I hate to say it, but the whole "men are just as over-idealized" thing is pretty inaccurate. It's true that there are a lot of men who are unrealistically chiseled. But, the statistics speak for themselves.

http://girl-wonder.org/papers/bmi.html

That's an unscientific survey, but the results are pretty clear.

From the survey:

"We randomly selected 25 representatives of each sex from the Marvel universe and used the Marvel.com website profiles to provide height and weight statistics"

I'm sorry, but there's a HUGE difference between the 'statistics' and the way the characters are actually drawn.

The statistics that study are based on mean little for the simple fact that comic-book characters tend to change fairly significantly based on the artist drawing them.

For example, the Marvel Website has Spider-Man and Black Cat as both 5"10. However, those statistics become meaningless when you actually open a comicbook. Ultimate Spider-man is significantly shorter than Black Cat. Amazing Spider-man is significantly taller.

Basically those 'statistics' are wildly innaccurate. They have to be because of how much the characters change artist to artist and series to series. Look at the number of different ways Wolverine has been drawn...yet he only has one height and weight statistic.

What's important is how these characters actually look...not how statistics on a website SAY they look.

Whatever way you look at it, the 'average' male superhero has the kind of body, muscle-mass and definition that the average real person can only dream of.

Put simply, comic book men are just as 'over-idealized' as the women. Next time you're out and about, see if you can spot any guy who even comes close to looking like Superman or Batman.

I'll openly agree that comic-book women are exploited more in terms of skimpy outfits and gratuitous cleavage shots...but in terms of body-shape, comicbook men are just as unrealistic as the women.

Paulius

Seriously after what Marvel did to Spider-Man your going to give them an idea like that?

"It's like the difference between having Sue Richards just 'go bad' and start working for Doctor Doom... or having her divorce Reed, set the Baxter Building on fire and get a job in a strip club. One is a just a good storyline, the other would set the comics community ablaze."

They may just run with it and if they do I shall have to blame you.

As for my 2 cents in on the topic. I would have been all for Mary Marvel going bad if it had been done well. But it was not. At all.
And yes her new costume is ridiculous.